The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 33

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 33

Governour Livingston, from the Committee of Eleven, to whom were referred the two remaining clauses of the 4^{th} Sect & the 5 & 6 Sect: of the 7^{th}. Art: delivered in the following Report:

"Strike out so much of the 4^{th} Sect: as was referred to the Committee and insert--'The migration or importation of such persons as the several States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Legislature prior to the year 1800, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such migration or importation at a rate not exceeding the average of the duties laid on imports.'"

"The 5 Sect: to remain as in the Report."

"The 6 Sect, to be stricken out."

M^r Butler, according to notice, moved that clause 1^{st} sect. 1. of art VII, as to the discharge of debts, be reconsidered tomorrow. He dwelt on the division of opinion concerning the domestic debts, and the different pretensions of the different cla.s.ses of holders. Gen^l Pinkney 2^{ded} him.

M^r Randolph wished for a reconsideration in order to better the expression, and to provide for the case of the State debts as is done by Congress.

On the question for reconsidering

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. ay. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. Pen^a absent. Del. ay.

M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. absent. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.--and tomorrow a.s.signed for the reconsideration.

Sect: 2 & 3 of art: IX being taken up,

M^r Rutlidge said this provision for deciding controversies between the States was necessary under the Confederation, but will be rendered unnecessary by the National Judiciary now to be established, and moved to strike it out.

Doc^r Johnson 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r Sherman concurred: so did M^r Dayton.

M^r Williamson was for postponing instead of striking out, in order to consider whether this might not be a good provision, in cases where the Judiciary were interested or too closely connected with the parties.

M^r Ghorum had doubts as to striking out. The Judges might be connected with the States being parties--He was inclined to think the mode proposed in the clause would be more satisfactory than to refer such cases to the Judiciary.

On the Question for postponing the 2^d & 3^d Section it pa.s.sed in the negative.

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. J. no. Pen^a abs^t.

Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r Wilson urged the striking out, the Judiciary being a better provision.

On Question for striking out 2 & 3 Sections Art: IX

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a abs^t. Del. ay.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

Art X. Sect. 1. "The Executive power of the U. S. shall be vested in a single person. His stile shall be "The President of the U. S. of America" and his t.i.tle shall be "His Excellency." He shall be elected by ballot by the Legislature. He shall hold his office during the term of seven years; but shall not be elected a second time."

On the question for vesting the power in a _single person_--It was agreed to nem: con: So also on the _stile_ and _t.i.tle_.

M^r Rutlidge moved to insert "joint" before the word "ballot," as the most convenient mode of electing.

M^r Sherman objected to it as depriving the _States_ represented in the _Senate_ of the negative intended them in that house.

M^r Ghorum said it was wrong to be considering at every turn whom the Senate would represent. The public good was the true object to be kept in view. Great delay and confusion would ensue if the two Houses sh^d vote separately, each having a negative on the choice of the other.

M^r Dayton. It might be well for those not to consider how the Senate was const.i.tuted, whose interest it was to keep it out of sight.--If the amendment should be agreed to, a _joint_ ballot would in fact give the appointment to one House. He could never agree to the clause with such an amendment. There could be no doubt of the two Houses separately concurring in the same person for President. The importance & necessity of the case would ensure a concurrence.

M^r Carrol moved to strike out "by the Legislature" and insert "by the people." M^r Wilson 2^{ded}. him & on the question

N. H. no. Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Brearly was opposed to the motion for inserting the word "joint."

The argument that the small States should not put their hands into the pockets of the large ones did not apply in this case.

M^r Wilson urged the reasonableness of giving the larger States a larger share of the appointment, and the danger of delay from a disagreement of the two Houses. He remarked also that the Senate had peculiar powers balancing the advantage given by a joint ballot in this case to the other branch of the Legislature.

M^r Langdon. This general officer ought to be elected by the joint & general voice. In N. Hampshire the mode of separate votes by the two Houses was productive of great difficulties. The negative of the Senate would hurt the feelings of the man elected by the votes of the other branch. He was for inserting "joint" tho' unfavorable to N. Hampshire as a small State.

M^r Wilson remarked that as the President of the Senate was to be the President of the U. S. that Body in cases of vacancy might have an interest in throwing dilatory obstacles in the way, if its separate concurrence should be required.

M^r Madison. If the amendment be agreed to the rule of voting will give to the largest State, compared with the smallest, an influence as 4 to 1 only, altho the population is as 10 to 1. This surely cannot be unreasonable as the President is to act for the _people_ not for the _States_. The President of the _Senate_ also is to be occasionally President of the U. S. and by his negative alone can make 3/4 of the other branch necessary to the pa.s.sage of a law. This is another advantage enjoyed by the Senate.

On the question for inserting "joint," it pa.s.sed in the affirmative.

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

M^r Dayton then moved to insert, after the word "Legislatures" the words "each State having one vote." M^r Brearly 2^{ded} him, and on the question it pa.s.sed in the negative.

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r Pinkney moved to insert after the word "Legislature" the words "to which election a majority of the votes of the members present shall be required" & on this question, it pa.s.sed in the affirmative.

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Read moved "that in case the numbers for the two highest in votes should be equal, then the President of the Senate shall have an additional casting vote," which was disagreed to by a general negative.

M^r Gov^r Morris opposed the election of the President by the Legislature. He dwelt on the danger of rendering the Executive uninterested in maintaining the rights of his Station, as leading to Legislative tyranny. If the Legislature have the Executive dependent on them, they can perpetuate & support their usurpations by the influence of tax-gatherers & other officers, by fleets armies &c. Cabal & corruption are attached to that mode of election: so also is ineligibility a second time. Hence the Executive is interested in Courting popularity in the Legislature by sacrificing his Executive Rights; & then he can go into that Body, after the expiration of his Executive office, and enjoy there the fruits of his policy. To these considerations he added that rivals would be continually intriguing to oust the President from his place. To guard against all these evils he moved that the President "shall be chosen by Electors to be chosen by the People of the several States." M^r Carrol 2^{ded} him & on the question it pa.s.sed in the negative N. H. no. Ma.s.s. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay.

P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Dayton moved to postpone the consideration of the two last clauses of Sect. 1. art X. which was disagreed to without a count of the States.

M^r Broome moved to refer the two clauses to a Committee of a member from each State, & on the question, it failed the States being equally divided.

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t div^d. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the question taken on the first part of M^r Gov^r Morris's motion to wit "shall be chosen by electors"

as an abstract question, it failed the States being equally divided,