The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 51

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 51

M^r Sherman mov^d that no Treaty be made without a Majority of the whole number of the Senate. M^r Gerry seconded him.

M^r Williamson. This will be less security than 2/3 as now required.

M^r Sherman. It will be less embarra.s.sing.

On the question, it pa.s.sed in the negative.

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison moved that a Quorum of the Senate consist of 2/3 of all the members.

M^r Gov^r Morris--This will put it in the power of one man to break up a Quorum.

M^r Madison. This may happen to any Quorum.

On the Question it pa.s.sed in the negative.

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Williamson & M^r Gerry mov^d "that no Treaty sh^d be made with^t previous notice to the members, & a reasonable time for their attending."

On the Question

All the States no; except N. C. S. C. & Geo. ay.

On a question on clause of the Report of the Com^e of Eleven relating to Treaties by 2/3 of the Senate.

All the States were ay.--except P^a N. J. & Geo. no.

M^r Gerry mov^d that "no officer be app^d but to offices created by the Const.i.tution or by law."--This was rejected as unnecessary by six no's & five ays:

The Ayes. Ma.s.s. C^t N. J. N. C. Geo.--Noes. N. H. P^a Del. M^d V^a S. C.

The clause referring to the Senate, the trial of impeachments ag^{st} the President, for Treason & bribery, was taken up.

Col. Mason. Why is the provision restrained to Treason & bribery only?

Treason as defined in the Const.i.tution will not reach many great and dangerous offences. Hastings is not guilty of Treason. Attempts to subvert the Const.i.tution may not be Treason as above defined. As bills of attainder which have saved the British Const.i.tution are forbidden, it is the more necessary to extend the power of impeachments. He mov^d to add, after "bribery" "or maladministration." M^r Gerry seconded him.

M^r Madison. so vague a term will be equivalent to a tenure during pleasure of the Senate.

M^r Gov^r Morris, it will not be put in force & can do no harm. An election of every four years will prevent maladministration.

Col. Mason withdrew "maladministration" & subst.i.tutes "other high crimes & misdemesnors ag^{st} the State."

On the question thus altered

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay.[62] Geo. ay.

[62] In the printed Journal, S. Carolina, no.--Madison's Note.

M^r Madison objected to a trial of the President by the Senate, especially as he was to be impeached by the other branch of the Legislature, and for any act which might be called a misdemesnor. The President under these circ.u.mstances was made improperly dependent. He would prefer the Supreme Court for the trial of impeachments, or rather a tribunal of which that should form a part.

M^r Gov^r Morris thought no other tribunal than the Senate could be trusted. The supreme Court were too few in number and might be warped or corrupted. He was ag^{st} a dependence of the Executive on the Legislature, considering the Legislative tyranny the great danger to be apprehended; but there could be no danger that the Senate would say untruly on their oaths that the President was guilty of crimes or facts, especially as in four years he can be turned out.

M^r Pinkney disapproved of making the Senate the Court of impeachments, as rendering the President too dependent on the Legislature. If he opposes a favorite law, the two Houses will combine ag^{st} him, and under the influence of heat and faction throw him out of office.

M^r Williamson thought there was more danger of too much lenity than of too much rigour towards the President, considering the number of cases in which the Senate was a.s.sociated with the President.

M^r Sherman regarded the Supreme Court as improper to try the President, because the Judges would be appointed by him.

On motion of M^r Madison to strike out the words--"by the Senate" after the word "conviction"

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

In the amendment of Col: Mason just agreed to, the word "State" after the words "misdemeanors against," was struck out, and the words "United States," inserted unanimously, in order to remove ambiguity.

On the question to agree to clause as amended,

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Cont. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On motion "The vice-President and other Civil officers of the U. S.

shall be removed from office on impeachment and conviction as aforesaid"

was added to the clause on the subject of impeachments.

The clause of the report made on the 5^{th} Sep^r & postponed was taken up to wit--"All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; and shall be subject to alterations and amendments by the Senate. No money shall be drawn from the Treasury but in consequence of appropriations made by law."

It was moved to strike out the words "and shall be subject to alterations and amendments by the Senate" and insert the words used in the Const.i.tution of Ma.s.sachusetts on the same subject--"but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as in other bills" which was agreed too nem: con:

On the question On the first part of the clause--"All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives"[63]

[63] This was a conciliatory vote, the effect of the compromise formerly alluded to. See Note Wednesday Sep^r 5.--Madison's Note.

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to add to clause (3) of the report made on Sep^r 4. the words "and every member shall be on oath" which being agreed to, and a question taken on the clause so amended viz--"The Senate of the U.

S. shall have power to try all impeachments; but no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present; and every member shall be on oath"

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del.--ay. M^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry repeated his motion above made on this day, in the form following: "The Legislature shall have the sole right of establishing offices not heretofore provided for" which was again negatived: Mas.

Con^t & Geo. only being ay.