The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume I Part 7

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume I Part 7

M^r King reminded the Committee that the choice of the second branch as proposed (by M^r Spaight) viz. by the State Legislatures would be impracticable, unless it was to be very numerous, or _the idea of proportion_ among the States was to be disregarded. According to this _idea_, there must be 80 or 100 members to ent.i.tle Delaware to the choice of one of them.--M^r Spaight withdrew his motion.

M^r Wilson opposed both a nomination by the State Legislatures, and an election by the first branch of the national Legislature, because the second branch of the latter, ought to be independent of both. He thought both branches of the National Legislature ought to be chosen by the people, but was not prepared with a specific proposition. He suggested the mode of chusing the Senate of N. York to wit of uniting several election districts for one branch, in chusing members for the other branch, as a good model.

M^r Madison observed that such a mode would destroy the influence of the smaller States a.s.sociated with larger ones in the same district; as the latter would chuse from within themselves, altho' better men might be found in the former. The election of Senators in Virg^a where large & small counties were often formed into one district for the purpose, had ill.u.s.trated this consequence. Local partiality, would often prefer a resident within the County or State, to a candidate of superior merit residing out of it. Less merit also in a resident would be more known throughout his own State.[45]

[45] "M^r Butler moved to have the proposition relating to the first branch postponed, in order to take up another,--which was that the second branch of the Legislature consist of blank.

"M^r King objected to the postponement for the reasons which he had offered before."--Pierce's Notes, _Id._, iii., 319.

M^r Sherman favored an election of one member by each of the State Legislatures.[46]

[46] According to Pierce, Mason spoke after Sherman, and Pinckney's motion is given more fully by Pierce than by Madison.

"M^r Mason was of opinion that it would be highly improper to draw the Senate out of the first branch; that it would occasion vacancies which would cost much time, trouble, and expense to have filled up,--besides which it would make the members too dependent on the first branch.

"M^r Ch^s Pinckney said he meant to propose to divide the Continent into four Divisions, out of which a certain number of persons sh^d be nominated, and out of that nomination to appoint a senate."--Pierce's Notes, _Amer. Hist. Rev._, iii., 319.

M^r Pinkney moved to strike out the "nomination by the State Legislatures;" on this question.

[47]Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. Pen^a no. Del.

div^d V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Georg no.

[47] This question is omitted in the printed Journal, & the votes applied to the succeeding one, instead of the votes as here stated.--Madison's Note.

On the whole question for electing by the first branch out of nominations by the State Legislatures, Ma.s.s. ay. Con^t no. N. Y. no.

N. Jersey, no. Pen^a no. Del. no. Virg^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. G^a no.

So the clause was disagreed to & a chasm left in this part of the plan.

The sixth Resolution stating the cases in which the national Legislature ought to legislate was next taken into discussion: On the question whether each branch sh^d originate laws, there was an unanimous affirmative without debate. On the question for transferring all the Legislative power of the existing Cong^s to this a.s.sembly, there was also a silent affirmative nem. con.

On the proposition for giving "Legislative power in all cases to which the State Legislatures were individually incompetent,"

M^r Pinkney & M^r Rutledge[48] objected to the vagueness of the term _incompetent_, and said they could not well decide how to vote until they should see an exact enumeration of the powers comprehended by this definition.[49]

[48] "Mr. Rutledge is one of those characters who was highly mounted at the commencement of the late revolution;--his reputation in the first Congress gave him a distinguished rank among the American Worthies. He was bred to the Law, and now acts as one of the Chancellors of South Carolina.

This Gentleman is much famed in his own State as an Orator, but in my opinion he is too rapid in his public speaking to be denominated an agreeable Orator. He is undobotedly a man of abilities, and a Gentleman of distinction and fortune.

Mr. Rutledge was once Governor of South Carolina. He is about 48 years of age."--Pierce's Notes, _Amer. Hist. Rev._, iii., 333.

[49] According to Pierce: "M^r Sherman was of opinion that it would be too indefinitely expressed,--and yet it would be hard to define all the powers by detail. It appeared to him that it would be improper for the national Legislature to negative all the Laws that were connected with the States themselves.

"M^r Madison said it was necessary to adopt some general principles on which we should act,--that we were wandering from one thing to another without seeming to be settled in any one principle.

"M^r Wythe observed that it would be right to establish general principles before we go into detail, or very shortly Gentlemen would find themselves in confusion, and would be obliged to have recurrence to the point from whence they sat out.

"M^r King was of opinion that the principles ought first to be established before we proceed to the framing of the Act.

He apprehends that the principles only go so far as to embrace all the power that is given up by the people to the Legislature, and to the federal Government, but no farther.

"M^r Randolph was of opinion that it would be impossible to define the powers and the length to which the federal Legislature ought to extend just at this time.

"M^r Wilson observed that it would be impossible to enumerate the powers which the federal Legislature ought to have."--Pierce's Notes, _Id._, iii., 319, 320.

M^r Butler repeated his fears that we were running into an extreme in taking away the powers of the States, and called on Mr. Randolph for the extent of his meaning.

M^r Randolph disclaimed any intention to give indefinite powers to the national Legislature, declaring that he was entirely opposed to such an inroad on the State jurisdictions, and that he did not think any considerations whatever could ever change his determination. His opinion was fixed on this point.

M^r Madison said that he had brought with him into the Convention a strong bias in favor of an enumeration and definition of the powers necessary to be exercised by the national Legislature; but had also brought doubts concerning its practicability. His wishes remained unaltered; but his doubts had become stronger. What his opinion might ultimately be he could not yet tell. But he should shrink from nothing which should be found essential to such a form of Gov^t as would provide for the safety, liberty and happiness of the community. This being the end of all our deliberations, all the necessary means for attaining it must, however reluctantly, be submitted to.

On the question for giving powers, in cases to which the States are not competent--Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t div^d. (Sherman no. Elseworth ay.) N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. Carolina ay.

Georg^a ay.

The other clauses giving powers necessary to preserve harmony among the States to negative all State laws contravening in the opinion of the Nat. Leg. the articles of union, down to the last clause, (the words "or any treaties subsisting under the authority of the Union," being added after the words "contravening &c. the articles of the Union," on motion of D^r Franklin) were agreed to with^t debate or dissent.

The last clause of Resolution 6, authorizing an exertion of the force of the whole ag^{st} a delinquent State came next into consideration.

M^r Madison, observed that the more he reflected on the use of force, the more he doubted, the practicability, the justice and the efficacy of it when applied to people collectively and not individually.--A union of the States containing such an ingredient seemed to provide for its own destruction. The use of force ag^{st} a State, would look more like a declaration of war, than an infliction of punishment, and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound. He hoped that such a system would be framed as might render this resource unnecessary, and moved that the clause be postponed. This motion was agreed to, nem. con.

The Committee then rose & the House

Adjourned.[50]

[50] "When the Convention first opened at Philadelphia, there were a number of propositions brought forward as great leading principles for the new Government to be established for the United States. A copy of these propositions was given to each Member with an injunction to keep everything a profound secret. One morning, by accident, one of the Members dropt his copy of the propositions, which being luckily picked up by General Mifflin was presented to General Washington, our President, who put it in his pocket.

After the debates of the Day were over, and the question for adjournment was called for, the General arose from his seat, and previous to his putting the question addressed the Convention in the following manner,--

"'Gentlemen

"'I am sorry to find that some one Member of this Body, has been so neglectful of the secrets of the Convention as to drop in the State House, a copy of their proceedings, which by accident was picked up and delivered to me this Morning.

I must entreat Gentlemen to be more careful, lest our transactions get into the News Papers, and disturb the public repose by premature speculations. I know not whose Paper it is, but there it is [throwing it down on the table,] let him who owns it take it.' At the same time he bowed, picked up his Hat, and quitted the room with a dignity so severe that every Person seemed alarmed; for my part I was extremely so, for putting my hand in my pocket I missed my copy of the same Paper, but advancing up to the Table my fears soon dissipated; I found it to be in the hand writing of another Person. When I went to my lodgings at the Indian Queen, I found my copy in a coat pocket which I had pulled off that Morning. It is something remarkable that no Person ever owned the Paper."--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist.

Rev._, iii., 324.

FRIDAY JUNE 1^{ST} 1787

William Houston from Georgia took his seat.

The Committee of the whole proceeded to Resolution 7. "that a national Executive be inst.i.tuted, to be chosen by the national Legislature for the term of ---- years &c. to be ineligible thereafter, to possess the Executive powers of Congress &c."

M^r Pinkney was for a vigorous Executive but was afraid the Executive powers of the existing Congress might extend to peace & war &c. which would render the Executive a monarchy, of the worst kind, to wit an elective one.

M^r Wilson moved that the Executive consist of a single person. M^r C.

Pinkney seconded the motion, so as to read "that a National Ex. to consist of a single person, be inst.i.tuted."

A considerable pause ensuing and the Chairman asking if he should put the question, Doc^r Franklin[51] observed that it was a point of great importance and wished that the gentlemen would deliver their sentiments on it before the question was put.

[51] "D^r Franklin is well known to be the greatest phylosopher of the present age;--all the operations of nature he seems to understand,--the very heavens obey him, and the Clouds yield up their Lightning to be imprisoned in his rod. But what claim he has to the politician, posterity must determine. It is certain that he does not shine much in public Council,--he is no Speaker, nor does he seem to let politics engage his attention. He is, however, a most extraordinary Man, and he tells a story in a style more engaging than anything I ever heard. Let his Biographer finish his character. He is 82 years old, and possesses an activity of mind equal to a youth of 25 years of age."--Pierce's Notes, _Amer. Hist. Rev._, iii., 328.