The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 16

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 16

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. M^d no. V^a no.

N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

On motion of M^r Wilson to reconsider Art: IV. Sect. 2; so as to restore 3 in place of seven years of citizenship as a qualification for being elected into the House of Represent^s.

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Monday next was then a.s.signed for the reconsideration; all the States being ay. except Ma.s.s^{ts}. & Georgia.

Art: VI. Sect. 3. taken up.

M^r Ghorum contended that less than a majority in each House should be made a Quorum, otherwise great delay might happen in business, and great inconvenience from the future increase of numbers.

M^r Mercer was also for less than a majority. So great a number will put it in the power of a few by seceding at a critical moment to introduce convulsions, and endanger the Governm^t. Examples of secession have already happened in some of the States. He was for leaving it to the Legislature to fix the Quorum, as in Great Britain, where the requisite number is small & no inconveniency has been experienced.

Col. Mason. This is a valuable & necessary part of the plan. In this extended Country, embracing so great a diversity of interests, it would be dangerous to the distant parts to allow a small number of members of the two Houses to make laws. The Central States could always take care to be on the Spot and by meeting earlier than the distant ones, or wearying their patience, and outstaying them, could carry such measures as they pleased. He admitted that inconveniences might spring from the secession of a small number; But he had also known good produced by an apprehension, of it. He had known a paper emission prevented by that cause in Virginia. He thought the Const.i.tution as now moulded was founded on sound principles, and was disposed to put into it extensive powers. At the same time he wished to guard ag^{st} abuses as much as possible. If the Legislature should be able to reduce the number at all, it might reduce it as low as it pleased & the U. States might be governed by a Juncto--A majority of the number which had been agreed on, was so few that he feared it would be made an objection ag^{st} the plan.

M^r King admitted there might be some danger of giving an advantage to the Central States; but he was of opinion that the public inconveniency on the other side was more to be dreaded.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to fix the quorum at 33 members in the H. of Rep^s & 14 in the Senate. This is a majority of the present number, and will be a bar to the Legislature: fix the number low and they will generally attend knowing that advantage may be taken of their absence, the Secession of a small number ought not to be suffered to break a quorum. Such events in the States may have been of little consequence.

In the national Councils they may be fatal. Besides other mischiefs, if a few can break up a quorum, they may seize a moment when a particular part of the Continent may be in need of immediate aid, to extort, by threatening a secession, some unjust & selfish measure.

M^r Mercer 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r King said he had just prepared a motion which instead of fixing the numbers proposed by M^r Gov^r Morris as Quorums, made those the lowest numbers, leaving the Legislature at liberty to increase them or not. He thought the future increase of members would render a majority of the whole extremely c.u.mbersome.

M^r Mercer agreed to subst.i.tute M^r King's motion in place of M^r Morris's.

M^r Elseworth was opposed to it. It would be a pleasing ground of confidence to the people that no law or burden could be imposed on them by a few men. He reminded the movers that the Const.i.tution proposed to give such a discretion with regard to the number of Representatives that a very inconvenient number was not to be apprehended. The inconveniency of secessions may be guarded ag^{st} by giving to each House an authority to require the attendance of absent members.

M^r Wilson concurred in the sentiments of M^r Elseworth.

M^r Gerry seemed to think that some further precautions than merely fixing the quorum might be necessary. He observed that as 17 w^d be a majority of a quorum of 33, and 8 of 14, questions might by possibility be carried in the H. of Rep^s by 2 large States, and in the Senate by the same States with the aid of two small ones.--He proposed that the number for a quorum in the H. of Rep^s should not exceed 50, nor be less than 33, leaving the intermediate discretion to the Legislature.

M^r King. As the quorum could not be altered with^t the concurrence of the President by less than 2/3 of each House, he thought there could be no danger in trusting the Legislature.

M^r Carrol. This would be no security ag^{st} a continuance of the quorums at 33 & 14. when they ought to be increased.

On question on M^r King's motion "that not less than 33 in the H. of Rep^s nor less than 14 in the Senate sh^d const.i.tute a Quorum which may be increased by a law, on additions of the members in either House.

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Randolph & M^r Madison moved to add to the end of Art. VI. Sect. 3, "and may be authorized to compel the attendance of absent members in such manner & under such penalties as each House may provide." Agreed to by all except Pen^a which was divided.

Art. VI. Sect. 3. agreed to as amended nem. con.

Sect. 4. } Agreed to nem. con.

Sect. 5. }

M^r Madison observed that the right of expulsion (Art. VI. Sect. 6.) was too important to be exercised by a bare majority of a quorum: and in emergencies of faction might be dangerously abused. He moved that, "with the concurrence of 2/3," might be inserted between may & expel.

M^r Randolph & M^r Mason approved the idea.

M^r Gov^r Morris. This power may be safely trusted to a majority. To require more may produce abuses on the side of the minority. A few men from factious motives may keep in a member who ought to be expelled.

M^r Carrol thought that the concurrence of 2/3 at least ought to be required.

On the question requiring 2/3 in cases of expelling a member.

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a div^d. Del. ay.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Art. VI. Sect. 6. as thus amended agreed to nem. con.

Art: VI. Sect. 7. taken up.

M^r Gov^r Morris urged that if the yeas & nays were proper at all any individual ought to be authorized to call for them; and moved an amendment to that effect.--The small States may otherwise be under a disadvantage, and find it difficult to get a concurrence of 1/5.

M^r Randolph 2^{ded} y^e motion.

M^r Sherman had rather strike out the yeas & nays altogether. They never have done any good, and have done much mischief. They are not proper as the reasons governing the voter never appear along with them.

M^r Elseworth was of the same opinion.

Col. Mason liked the Section as it stood, it was a middle way between two extremes.

M^r Ghorum was opposed to the motion for allowing a single member to call the yeas & nays, and recited the abuses of it in Ma.s.s^{ts}. 1 in stuffing the journals with them on frivolous occasions. 2 in misleading the people who never know the reasons determing the votes.

The motion for allowing a single member to call the yeas & nays was disag^d to nem. con.

M^r Carrol. & M^r Randolph moved to strike out the words, "each House"

and to insert the words, "the House of Representatives" in Sect. 7. Art.

6. and to add to the section the words "and any member of the Senate shall be at liberty to enter his dissent."

M^r Gov^r Morris & M^r Wilson observed that if the minority were to have a right to enter their votes & reasons, the other side would have a right to complain, if it were not extended to them: & to allow it to both, would fill the Journals, like the records of a Court, with replications, rejoinders &c.

Question on M^r Carrol's motion to allow a member to enter his dissent

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry moved to strike out the words "when it shall be acting in its legislative capacity" in order to extend the provision to the Senate when exercising its peculiar authorities and to insert "except such parts thereof as in their judgment require secrecy" after the words "publish them."--(It was thought by others that provision should be made with respect to these when that part came under consideration which proposed to vest those additional authorities in the Senate.)

On this question for striking out the words "when acting in its legislative capacity"

N. H. div^d. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.