The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 14

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 14

N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Williamson moved to insert after "vacancies shall be supplied by the Executives," the following words "unless other provision shall be made by the Legislature" (of the State).

M^r Elseworth. He was willing to trust the Legislature, or the Executive of a State, but not to give the former a discretion to refer appointments for the Senate to whom they pleased.

Question on M^r Williamson's motion

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. M^d ay. V^a no.

N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison in order to prevent doubts whether resignations could be made by Senators, or whether they could refuse to accept, moved to strike out the words after "vacancies," & insert the words "happening by refusals to accept, resignations or otherwise, may be supplied by the Legislature of the State in the representation of which such vacancies shall happen, or by the Executive thereof until the next meeting of the Legislature."

M^r Gov^r Morris this is absolutely necessary, otherwise, as members chosen into the Senate are disqualified from being appointed to any office by Sect. 9. of this art: it will be in the power of a Legislature by appointing a man a Senator ag^{st} his consent, to deprive the U. S.

of his services.

The motion of M^r Madison was agreed to nem. con.

M^r Randolph called for division of the Section, so as to leave a distinct question on the last words "each member shall have one vote."

He wished this last sentence to be postponed until the reconsideration should have taken place on Sect. 5. Art. IV. concerning money bills. If that section should not be reinstated his plan would be to vary the representation in the Senate.

M^r Strong concurred in M^r Randolph's ideas on this point.

M^r Read did not consider the section as to money bills of any advantage to the larger States and had voted for striking it out as being viewed in the same light by the larger States. If it was considered by them as of any value, and as a condition of the equality of votes in the Senate, he had no objection to its being re-instated.

M^r Wilson--M^r Elseworth & M^r Madison urged that it was of no advantage to the larger States, and that it might be a dangerous source of contention between the two Houses. All the princ.i.p.al powers of the Nat^l Legislature had some relation to money.

Doc^r Franklin, considered the two clauses, the originating of money bills, and the equality of votes in the Senate, as essentially connected by the compromise which had been agreed to.

Col. Mason said this was not the time for discussing this point. When the originating of money bills shall be reconsidered, he thought it could be demonstrated that it was of essential importance to restrain the right to the House of Representatives the immediate choice of the people.

M^r Williamson. The State of N. C. had agreed to an equality in the Senate, merely in consideration that money bills should be confined to the other House: and he was surprised to see the smaller States forsaking the condition on which they had received their equality.

Question on the section 1. down to the last sentence

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a[19] no. Del. ay.

M^d ay. Virg^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. div^d. Geo. ay.

[19] "In the printed Journal Pennsylvania ay."--Madison's Note.

M^r Randolph moved that the last sentence "each member shall have one vote," be postponed.

It was observed that this could not be necessary; as in case the sanction as to originating money bills should not be reinstated, and a revision of the Const.i.tution should ensue, it w^d still be proper that the members should vote per Capita. A postponement of the preceding sentence allowing to each State 2 members w^d have been more proper.

M^r Mason, did not mean to propose a change of this mode of voting per capita in any event. But as there might be other modes proposed, he saw no impropriety in postponing the sentence. Each State may have two members, and yet may have unequal votes. He said that unless the exclusive originating of money bills should be restored to the House of Representatives, he should, not from obstinacy but duty and conscience, oppose throughout the equality of Representation in the Senate.

M^r Gov^r Morris. Such declarations were he supposed, addressed to the smaller States in order to alarm them for their equality in the Senate, and induce them ag^{st} their judgments, to concur in restoring the section concerning money bills. He would declare in his turn that as he saw no prospect of amending the Const.i.tution of the Senate & considered the section relating to money bills as intrinsically bad, he would adhere to the section establishing the equality at all events.

M^r Wilson. It seems to have been supposed by some that the section concerning money bills is desirable to the large States. The fact was that two of those States (P^a & V^a) had uniformly voted ag^{st} it without reference to any other part of the system.

M^r Randolph, urged as Col. Mason had done that the sentence under consideration was connected with that relating to Money bills, and might possibly be affected by the result of the motion for reconsidering the latter. That the postponement was therefore not improper.

Question for postponing "each member shall have one vote,"

N. H. div^d. Ma.s.s. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no.

M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

The words were then agreed to as part of the section.

M^r Randolph then gave notice that he should move to reconsider this whole Sect: 1. Art. V. as connected with the 5. Sect. Art. IV. as to which he had already given such notice.

Art. V. Sect. 2^d taken up.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to insert after the words, "immediately after,"

the following "they shall be a.s.sembled in consequence of," which was agreed to nem. con. as was then the whole sect. 2.

Art: V. Sect. 3. taken up.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to insert 14 instead of 4 years citizenship as a qualification for Senators: urging the danger of admitting strangers into our public Councils. M^r Pinkney 2^d him.

M^r Elseworth, was opposed to the motion as discouraging meritorious aliens from emigrating to this Country.

M^r Pinkney. As the Senate is to have the power of making treaties & managing our foreign affairs, there is peculiar danger and impropriety in opening its door to those who have foreign attachments. He quoted the jealousy of the Athenians on this subject who made it death for any stranger to intrude his voice into their Legislative proceedings.

Col. Mason highly approved of the policy of the motion. Were it not that many not natives of this Country had acquired great merit during the revolution, he should be for restraining the eligibility into the Senate, to natives.

M^r Madison was not averse to some restrictions on this subject; but could never agree to the proposed amendment. He thought any restriction however in the _Const.i.tution_ unnecessary, and improper, unnecessary; because the Nat^l Legisl^{re} is to have the right of regulating naturalization, and can by virtue thereof fix different periods of residence or conditions of enjoying different privileges of Citizenship: Improper; because it will give a tincture of illiberality to the Const.i.tution: because it will put it out of the power of the Nat^l Legislature even by special acts of naturalization to confer the full rank of Citizens on meritorious strangers & because it will discourage the most desirable cla.s.s of people from emigrating to the U. S. Should the proposed Const.i.tution have the intended effect of giving stability & reputation to our Gov^{ts} great numbers of respectable Europeans; men who love liberty and wish to partake its blessings, will be ready to transfer their fortunes. .h.i.ther. All such would feel the mortification of being marked with suspicious incapacitations though they s^d not covet the public honors. He was not apprehensive that any dangerous number of strangers would be appointed by the State Legislatures, if they were left at liberty to do so: nor that foreign powers would make use of strangers as instruments for their purposes. Their bribes would be expended on men whose circ.u.mstances would rather stifle than excite jealousy & watchfulness in the public.

M^r Butler was decidedly opposed to the admission of foreigners without a long residence in the Country. They bring with them, not only attachments to other Countries; but ideas of Gov^t so distinct from ours that in every point of view they are dangerous. He acknowledged that if he himself had been called into public life within a short time after his coming to America, his foreign habits opinions & attachments would have rendered him an improper agent in public affairs. He mentioned the great strictness observed in Great Britain on this subject.

Doc^r Franklin was not against a reasonable time, but should be very sorry to see any thing like illiberality inserted in the Const.i.tution.

The people in Europe are friendly to this Country. Even in the Country with which we have been lately at war, we have now & had during the war, a great many friends not only among the people at large but in both houses of Parliament. In every other Country in Europe all the people are our friends. We found in the course of the Revolution, that many strangers served us faithfully, and that many natives took part ag^{st} their Country. When foreigners after looking about for some other Country in which they can obtain more happiness, give a preference to ours, it is a proof of attachment which ought to excite our confidence & affection.

M^r Randolph did not know but it might be problematical whether emigrations to this Country were on the whole useful or not: but he could never agree to the motion for disabling them for 14 years to partic.i.p.ate in the public honours. He reminded the Convention of the language held by our patriots during the Revolution, and the principles laid down in all our American Const.i.tutions. Many foreigners may have fixed their fortunes among us under the faith of these invitations. All persons under this description, with all others who would be affected by such a regulation, would enlist themselves under the banners of hostility to the proposed System. He would go as far as seven years, but no further.

M^r Wilson said he rose with feelings which were perhaps peculiar; mentioning the circ.u.mstance of his not being a native, and the possibility, if the ideas of some gentlemen should be pursued, of his being incapacitated from holding a place under the very Const.i.tution, which he had shared in the trust of making. He remarked the illiberal complexion which the motion would give to the System & the effect which a good system would have in inviting meritorious foreigners among us, and the discouragement & mortification they must feel from the degrading discrimination now proposed. He had himself experienced this mortification. On his removal into Maryland, he found himself, from defect of residence, under certain legal incapacities which never ceased to produce chagrin, though he a.s.suredly did not desire & would not have accepted the offices to which they related. To be appointed to a place may be matter of indifference. To be incapable of being appointed, is a circ.u.mstance grating and mortifying.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The lesson we are taught is that we should be governed as much by our reason, and as little by our feelings as possible. What is the language of Reason on this subject? That we should not be polite at the expence of prudence. There was a moderation in all things. It is said that some tribes of Indians, carried their hospitality so far as to offer to strangers their wives & daughters. Was this a proper model for us? He would admit them to his house, he would invite them to his table, would provide for them comfortable lodgings; but would not carry the complaisance so far as, to bed them with his wife. He would let them worship at the same altar, but did not choose to make Priests of them.

He ran over the privileges which emigrants would enjoy among us, though they should be deprived of that of being eligible to the great offices of Government; observing that they exceeded the privileges allowed to foreigners in any part of the world; and that as every Society from a great nation down to a club had the right of declaring the conditions on which new members should be admitted, there could be no room for complaint. As to those philosophical gentlemen, those Citizens of the World as they called themselves, He owned he did not wish to see any of them in our public Councils. He would not trust them. The men who can shake off their attachments to their own Country can never love any other. These attachments are the wholesome prejudices which uphold all Governments. Admit a Frenchman into your Senate, and he will study to increase the commerce of France: an Englishman, he will feel an equal bias in favor of that of England. It has been said that The Legislatures will not chuse foreigners, at least improper ones. There was no knowing what Legislatures would do. Some appointments made by them, proved that every thing ought to be apprehended from the cabals practised on such occasions. He mentioned the case of a foreigner who left this State in disgrace, and worked himself into an appointment from another to Congress.

Question on the motion of M^r Gov^r Morris to insert 14 in place of 4 years

N.H. ay. Ma.s.s. no. C^t no. N.J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On 13 years, moved by M^r Gov^r Morris

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.