The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 10

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 10

The members of the Legislatures, and the Executive and Judicial officers of the United States, and of the several States, shall be bound by oath to support this Const.i.tution.

XXI

The ratification of the Conventions of ---- States shall be sufficient for organizing this Const.i.tution.

XXII

This Const.i.tution shall be laid before the United States in Congress a.s.sembled, for their approbation; and it is the opinion of this Convention, that it should be afterwards submitted to a Convention chosen, under the recommendation of its legislature, in order to receive the ratification of such Convention.

XXIII

To introduce this government, it is the opinion of this Convention, that each a.s.senting Convention should notify its a.s.sent and ratification to the United States in Congress a.s.sembled; that Congress, after receiving the a.s.sent and ratification of the Conventions of ---- States, should appoint and publish a day, as early as may be, and appoint a place, for commencing proceedings under this Const.i.tution; that after such publication, the Legislatures of the several States should elect members of the Senate, and direct the election of members of the House of Representatives; and that the members of the Legislature should meet at the time and place a.s.signed by Congress, and should, as soon as may be, after their meeting, choose the President of the United States, and proceed to execute this Const.i.tution.

A motion was made to adjourn till Wednesday, in order to give leisure to examine the Report; which pa.s.sed in the negative--

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. P^a ay. M^d ay. Virg. ay. N. C. no.

S. C. no.

The House then adjourned till to-morrow 11 OC.

TUESDAY AUGUST 7.[17] IN CONVENTION

[17] Although the secrecy of the proceedings was guarded carefully, the reason of the long adjournment was generally known outside of the Convention.

"The Convention adjourned about three weeks ago and appointed a Committee consisting of M^r Rutlege, M^r Randolph, M^r Wilson, M^r Elsworth, & M^r Gorham to draw into form the measures which had been agreed upon--they rea.s.sembled last Monday sen'night to receive the report--I suppose we shall have the result of this great business in a few weeks more."--Edward Carrington to Monroe, August 7, 1787.

Monroe MSS.

_Cf._ King's account of the debate confirming the accuracy of Madison's report (King's _Life and Correspondence of Rufus King_, i., 617).

The Report of the Committee of detail being taken up,

M^r Pinkney moved that it be referred to a Committee of the whole. This was strongly opposed by M^r Ghorum & several others, as likely to produce unnecessary delay; and was negatived, Delaware Mary^d & Virg^a only being in the affirmative.

The preamble of the Report was agreed to nem. con. So were Art: I & II.

Art: III considered. Col. Mason doubted the propriety of giving each branch a negative on the other "in all cases." There were some cases in which it was he supposed not intended to be given as in the case of balloting for appointments.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to insert "legislative acts" instead of "all cases."

M^r Williamson 2^{ds} him.

M^r Sherman. This will restrain the operation of the clause too much. It will particularly exclude a mutual negative in the case of ballots, which he hoped would take place.

M^r Ghorum contended that elections ought to be made by _joint ballot_.

If separate ballots should be made for the President, and the two branches should be each attached to a favorite, great delay contention & confusion may ensue. These inconveniences have been felt in Mas^{ts} in the election of officers of little importance compared with the Executive of the U. States. The only objection ag^{st} a joint ballot is that it may deprive the Senate of their due weight; but this ought not to prevail over the respect due to the public tranquility & welfare.

M^r Wilson was for a joint ballot in several cases at least; particularly in the choice of the President, and was therefore for the amendment. Disputes between the two Houses during & concern^g the vacancy of the Executive might have dangerous consequences.

Col. Mason thought the amendment of M^r Gov^r Morris extended too far.

Treaties are in a subsequent part declared to be laws, they will therefore be subjected to a negative; altho' they are to be made as proposed by the Senate alone. He proposed that the mutual negative should be restrained to "cases requiring the distinct a.s.sent" of the two Houses.

M^r Gov^r Morris thought this but a repet.i.tion of the same thing; the mutual negative and distinct a.s.sent, being equivalent expressions.

Treaties he thought were not laws.

M^r Madison moved to strike out the words each of which shall in all cases, have a negative on the other; the idea being sufficiently expressed in the preceding member of the article; vesting the "legislative power" in "distinct bodies," especially as the respective powers and mode of exercising them were fully delineated in a subsequent article.

Gen^l Pinkney 2^{ded} the motion.

On question for inserting legislative Acts as moved by M^r Gov^r Morris

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no.

N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On question for agreeing to M^r M's motion to strike out &c.----

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a ay.

N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison wished to know the reasons of the Com^e for fixing by y^e Const.i.tution the time of Meeting for the Legislature; and suggested, that it be required only that one meeting at least should be held every year leaving the time to be fixed or varied by law.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out the sentence. It was improper to tie down the Legislature to a particular time, or even to require a meeting every year. The public business might not require it.

M^r Pinkney concurred with M^r Madison.

M^r Ghorum. If the time be not fixed by the Const.i.tution, disputes will arise in the Legislature; and the States will be at a loss to adjust thereto, the times of their elections. In the N. England States the annual time of meeting had been long fixed by their Charters & Const.i.tutions, and no inconvenience had resulted. He thought it necessary that there should be one meeting at least every year as a check on the Executive department.

M^r Elseworth was ag^{st} striking out the words. The Legislature will not know till they are met whether the public interest required their meeting or not. He could see no impropriety in fixing the day, as the Convention could judge of it as well as the Legislature.

M^r Wilson thought on the whole it would be best to fix the day.

M^r King could not think there would be a necessity for a meeting every year. A great vice in our system was that of legislating too much. The most numerous objects of legislation belong to the States. Those of the Nat^l Legislature were but few. The chief of them were commerce & revenue. When these should be once settled alterations would be rarely necessary & easily made.

M^r Madison thought if the time of meeting should be fixed by a law it w^d be sufficiently fixed & there would be no difficulty then as had been suggested, on the part of the States in adjusting their elections to it. One consideration appeared to him to militate strongly ag^{st} fixing a time by the Const.i.tution. It might happen that the Legislature might be called together by the public exigencies & finish their Session but a short time before the annual period. In this case it would be extremely inconvenient to rea.s.semble so quickly & without the least necessity. He thought one annual meeting ought to be required; but did not wish to make two unavoidable.

Col. Mason thought the objections against fixing the time insuperable: but that an annual meeting ought to be required as essential to the preservation of the Const.i.tution. The extent of the Country will supply business. And if it should not, the Legislature, besides _legislative_, is to have _inquisitorial_ powers, which cannot safely be long kept in a state of suspension.

M^r Sherman was decided for fixing the time, as well as for frequent meetings of the Legislative body. Disputes and difficulties will arise between the two Houses, & between both & the States, if the time be changeable--frequent meetings of Parliament were required at the Revolution in England as an essential safeguard of liberty. So also are annual meetings in most of the American charters & const.i.tutions. There will be business eno' to require it. The Western Country, and the great extent and varying state of our affairs in general will supply objects.

M^r Randolph was ag^{st} fixing any day irrevocably; but as there was no provision made any where in the Const.i.tution for regulating the periods of meeting, and some precise time must be fixed, untill the Legislature shall make provision, he could not agree to strike out the words altogether. Instead of which he moved to add the words following--"unless a different day shall be appointed by law."

M^r Madison 2^{ded} the motion, & on the question

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay.

N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.