The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 6

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 6

Col. Mason. In every stage of the Question relative to the Executive, the difficulty of the subject and the diversity of the opinions concerning it have appeared. Nor have any of the modes of const.i.tuting that department been satisfactory. 1. It has been proposed that the election should be made by the people at large; that is that an act which ought to be performed by those who know most of Eminent characters, & qualifications, should be performed by those who know least. 2. that the election should be made by the Legislatures of the States. 3. by the Executives of the States. Ag^{st} these modes also strong objections have been urged. 4. It has been proposed that the election should be made by Electors chosen by the people for that purpose. This was at first agreed to: But on further consideration has been rejected. 5. Since which, the mode of M^r Williamson, requiring each freeholder to vote for several candidates has been proposed. This seemed like many other propositions, to carry a plausible face, but on closer inspection is liable to fatal objections. A popular election in any form, as M^r Gerry has observed, would throw the appointment into the hands of the Cincinnati, a Society for the members of which he had a great respect, but which he never wished to have a preponderating influence in the Gov^t. 6. Another expedient was proposed by M^r d.i.c.kinson, which is liable to so palpable & material an inconvenience that he had little doubt of its being by this time rejected by himself.

It would exclude every man who happened not to be popular within his own State; tho' the causes of his local unpopularity might be of such a nature as to recommend him to the States at large. 7. Among other expedients, a lottery has been introduced. But as the tickets do not appear to be in much demand, it will probably, not be carried on, and nothing therefore need be said on that subject. After reviewing all these various modes, he was led to conclude, that an election by the Nat^l Legislature as originally proposed, was the best. If it was liable to objections, it was liable to fewer than any other. He conceived at the same time that a second election ought to be absolutely prohibited.

Having for his primary object for the pole-star of his political conduct, the preservation of the rights of the people, he held it as an essential point, as the very palladium of civil liberty, that the Great officers of State, and particularly the Executive should at fixed periods return to that ma.s.s from which they were at first taken, in order that they may feel & respect those rights & interests, Which are again to be personally valuable to them. He concluded with moving that the const.i.tution of the Executive as reported by the Com^e of the whole be reinstated, viz. "that the Executive be appointed for seven years, & be ineligible a 2^d time."

M^r Davie seconded the motion.

Doc^r Franklin. It seems to have been imagined by some that the returning to the ma.s.s of the people was degrading the magistrate. This he thought was contrary to republican principles. In free Governments the rulers are the servants, and the people their superiors & sovereigns. For the former therefore to return among the latter was not to _degrade_ but to _promote_ them. And it would be imposing an unreasonable burden on them, to keep them always in a State of servitude, and not allow them to become again one of the Masters.

Question on Col. Masons motion as above; which pa.s.sed in the affirmative

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s^{ts} not on floor. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no.

Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris was now ag^{st} the whole paragraph. In answer to Col.

Mason's position that a periodical return of the great officers of the State into the ma.s.s of the people, was the palladium of Civil liberty he w^d observe that on the same principle the Judiciary ought to be periodically degraded; certain it was that the Legislature ought on every principle, yet no one had proposed, or conceived that the members of it should not be re-eligible. In answer to Doc^r Franklin, that a return into the ma.s.s of the people would be a promotion, instead of a degradation, he had no doubt that our Executive like most others would have too much patriotism to shrink from the burthen of his office, and too much modesty not to be willing to decline the promotion.

On the question on the whole resolution as amended in the words following--"that a National Executive be inst.i.tuted--to consist of a single person--to be chosen by the Nat^l legislature--for the term of seven years--to be ineligible a 2^d time--with power to carry into execution the nat^l laws--to appoint to offices in cases not otherwise provided for--to be removable on impeachment & conviction of mal-practice or neglect of duty--to receive a fixt compensation for the devotion of his time to the public service, to be paid out of the Nat^l treasury"--it pa.s.sed in the affirmative

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. not on floor. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del.

no. M^d no. V^a div^d. M^r Blair & Col. Mason ay. Gen^l Washington & M^r Madison no. M^r Randolph happened to be out of the House. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Mason moved "that the Co[~m]ittee of detail be instructed to receive a clause requiring certain qualifications of landed property & citizenship of the U. States, in members of the Legislature, and disqualifying persons having unsettled Acc^{ts} with or being indebted to the U. S., from being members of the Nat^l Legislature."--He observed that persons of the latter descriptions had frequently got into the State Legislatures, in order to promote laws that might shelter their delinquencies; and that this evil had crept into Cong^s if Report was to be regarded.

M^r Pinckney seconded the motion.

Mr. Gov^r Morris. If qualifications are proper, he w^d prefer them in the electors rather than the elected. As to debtors of the U. S. they are but few. As to persons having unsettled accounts he believed them to be pretty many. He thought however that such a discrimination would be both odious & useless, and in many instances, unjust & cruel. The delay of settlem^t had been more the fault of the Public than of the individuals. What will be done with those patriotic Citizens who have lent money, or services or property to their Country, without having been yet able to obtain a liquidation of their claims? Are they to be excluded?

M^r Ghorum was for leaving to the Legislature the providing ag^{st} such abuses as had been mentioned.

Col. Mason mentioned the parliamentary qualifications adopted in the Reign of Queen Anne, which he said had met with universal approbation.

M^r Madison had witnessed the zeal of men having acc^{ts} with the public, to get into the Legislatures for sinister purposes. He thought however that if any precaution were taken for excluding them, the one proposed by Col. Mason ought to be new modelled. It might be well to limit the exclusion to persons who had rec^d money from the public, and had not accounted for it.

M^r Gov^r Morris. It was a precept of great antiquity as well as of high authority that we should not be righteous overmuch. He thought we ought to be equally on our guard ag^{st} being wise overmuch. The proposed regulation would enable the Govern^t to exclude particular persons from office as long as they pleased. He mentioned the case of the Co[~m]ander in Chief's presenting his account for secret services, which he said was so moderate that every one was astonished at it; and so simple that no doubt could arise on it. Yet had the Auditor been disposed to delay the settlement, how easily he might have effected it, & how cruel w^d it be in such a case to keep a distinguished & meritorious Citizen under a temporary disability & disfranchis.e.m.e.nt. He mentioned this case merely to ill.u.s.trate the objectionable nature of the proposition. He was opposed to such minutious regulations in a Const.i.tution. The parliamentary qualifications quoted by Col. Mason, had been disregarded in practice; and was but a scheme of the landed ag^{st} the monied interest.

M^r Pinckney & Gen^l Pinckney moved to insert by way of amendm^t the words Judiciary & Executive so as to extend the qualifications to those departments which was agreed to nem con.

M^r Gerry thought the inconveniency of excluding a few worthy individuals who might be public debtors or have unsettled acc^{ts} ought not to be put in the scale ag^{st} the public advantages of the regulation, and that the motion did not go far enough.

M^r King observed that there might be great danger in requiring landed property as a qualification since it would exclude the monied interest, whose aids may be essential in particular emergencies to the public safety.

M^r d.i.c.kinson, was ag^{st} any recital of qualifications in the Const.i.tution. It was impossible to make a compleat one, and a partial one w^d by implication tie up the hands of the Legislature from supplying the omissions. The best defence lay in the freeholders who were to elect the Legislature. Whilst this Source should remain pure, the Public interest would be safe. If it ever should be corrupt, no little expedients would repel the danger. He doubted the policy of interweaving into a Republican const.i.tution a veneration for wealth. He had always understood that a veneration for poverty & virtue, were the objects of republican encouragement. It seemed improper that any man of merit should be subjected to disabilities in a Republic where merit was understood to form the great t.i.tle to public trust, honors & rewards.

M^r Gerry if property be one object of Government, provisions to secure it cannot be improper.

M^r Madison moved to strike out the word _landed_, before the word "qualifications." If the proposition s^d be agreed to he wished the Committee to be at liberty to report the best criterion they could devise. Landed possessions were no certain evidence of real wealth. Many enjoyed them to a great extent who were more in debt than they were worth. The unjust Laws of the States had proceeded more from this cla.s.s of men, than any others. It had often happened that men who had acquired landed property on credit, got into the Legislatures with a view of promoting an unjust protection ag^{st} their Creditors. In the next place, if a small quant.i.ty of land should be made the standard, it would be no security; if a large one, it would exclude the proper representatives of those cla.s.ses of Citizens who were not landholders.

It was politic as well as just that the interests & rights of every cla.s.s should be duly represented & understood in the public Councils. It was a provision every where established that the Country should be divided into districts & representatives taken from each, in order that the Legislative a.s.sembly might equally understand & sympathize with the rights of the people in every part of the Community. It was not less proper that every cla.s.s of Citizens should have an opportunity of making their rights be felt & understood in the public Councils. The three princ.i.p.al cla.s.ses into which our citizens were divisible, were the landed the commercial, & the manufacturing. The 2^d & 3^d cla.s.s, bear as yet a small proportion to the first. The proportion however will daily increase. We see in the populous Countries in Europe now, what we shall be hereafter. These cla.s.ses understand much less of each others interests & affairs, than men of the same cla.s.s inhabiting different districts. It is particularly requisite therefore that the interests of one or two of them should not be left entirely to the care, or impartiality of the third. This must be the case if landed qualifications should be required; few of the mercantile, & scarcely any of the manufacturing cla.s.s chusing whilst they continue in business to turn any part of their Stock into landed property. For these reasons he wished if it were possible that some other criterion than the mere possession of land should be devised. He concurred with M^r Gov^r Morris in thinking that qualifications in the Electors would be much more effectual than in the elected. The former would discriminate between real & ostensible property in the latter; But he was aware of the difficulty of forming any uniform standard that would suit the different circ.u.mstances & opinions prevailing in the different States.

M^r Gov^r Morris 2^{ded} the motion.

On the Question for striking out "landed"

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On Question on 1^{st} part of Col. Masons proposition as to "qualification of property & citizenship," as so amended

N. H. ay. Mas^{ts} ay. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

"The 2^d part, for disqualifying debtors, and persons having unsettled accounts," being under consideration

M^r Carrol moved to strike out "having unsettled accounts"

M^r Ghorum seconded the motion; observing that it would put the commercial & manufacturing part of the people on a worse footing than others as they would be most likely to have dealings with the public.

M^r L. Martin, if these words should be struck out, and the remaining words concerning debtors retained, it will be the interest of the latter cla.s.s to keep their accounts unsettled as long as possible.

M^r Wilson was for striking them out. They put too much power in the hands of the Auditors, who might combine with rivals in delaying settlements in order to prolong the disqualifications of particular men.

We should consider that we are providing a Const.i.tution for future generations, and not merely for the peculiar circ.u.mstances of the moment. The time has been, and will again be, when the public safety may depend on the voluntary aids of individuals which will necessarily open acc^{ts} with the public, and when such acc^{ts} will be a characteristic of patriotism. Besides a partial enumeration of cases will disable the Legislature from disqualifying odious & dangerous characters.

M^r Langdon[13] was for striking out the whole clause for the reasons given by M^r Wilson. So many exclusions he thought too would render the system unacceptable to the people.

[13] "M^r Langdon is a man of considerable fortune, possesses a liberal mind, and a good plain understanding--about 40 years old."--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 325.

M^r Gerry. If the argum^{ts} used today were to prevail, we might have a Legislature composed of Public debtors, pensioners, placemen & contractors. He thought the proposed qualifications would be pleasing to the people. They will be considered as a security ag^{st} unnecessary or undue burdens being imposed on them. He moved to add "pensioners" to the disqualified characters which was negatived.

N. H. no. Mas. ay. Con. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no.

Mary^d ay. V^a no. N. C. divided. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The last clause, relating to public debtors will exclude every importing merchant. Revenue will be drawn it is foreseen as much as possible, from trade. Duties of course will be bonded, and the Merch^{ts} will remain debtors to the public. He repeated that it had not been so much the fault of individuals as of the public that transactions between them had not been more generally liquidated & adjusted. At all events to draw from our short & scanty experience rules that are to operate through succeeding ages, does not savour much of real wisdom.

On question for striking out, "persons having unsettled accounts with the U. States."

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

M^r Elseworth was for disagreeing to the remainder of the clause disqualifying Public debtors; and for leaving to the wisdom of the Legislature and the virtue of the Citizens, the task of providing ag^{st} such evils. Is the smallest as well as the largest debtor to be excluded? Then every arrear of taxes will disqualify. Besides how is it to be known to the people when they elect who are or are not public debtors. The exclusion of pensioners & placemen in Engl^d is founded on a consideration not existing here. As persons of that sort are dependent on the Crown, they tend to increase its influence.

M^r Pinkney s^d he was at first a friend to the proposition, for the sake of the clause relating to qualifications of property; but he disliked the exclusion of public debtors; it went too far. It w^d exclude persons who had purchased confiscated property or should purchase Western territory of the public, and might be some obstacle to the sale of the latter.

On the question for agreeing to the clause disqualifying public debtors

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

Col. Mason, observed that it would be proper, as he thought, that some provision should be made in the Const.i.tution ag^{st} choosing for the Seat of the Gen^l Gov^t the City or place at which the Seat of any State Gov^t might be fixt. There were 2 objections ag^{st} having them at the same place, which without mentioning others, required some precaution on the subject. The 1^{st} was that it tended to produce disputes concerning jurisdiction. The 2^d & princ.i.p.al one was that the intermixture of the two Legislatures tended to give a provincial tincture to y^e Nat^l deliberations. He moved that the Com^e be instructed to receive a clause to prevent the seat of the Nat^l Gov^t being in the same City or town with the Seat of the Gov^t of any State longer than untill the necessary public buildings could be erected.

M^r Alex. Martin 2^{ded} the motion.