The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume I Part 25

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume I Part 25

"While we were dependent on the crown of Great Britain, it was in contemplation to form the whole into one; but it was found impracticable. No legislature could make good laws for the whole, nor can it now be done. It would necessarily place the power in the hands of the few nearest the seat of government. State governments must therefore remain, if you mean to prevent confusion. The general negative powers will support the general government. Upon these considerations, I am led to form the second branch differently from the report. These powers are important, and the number not too large, upon the principle of proportion. I have considered the subject with great attention; and I propose this plan (reads it), and if no better plan is proposed, I will then move its adoption."--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_, etc., 163.

The mode of const.i.tuting the 2^d branch being under consideration.

The word "national" was struck out, and "United States" inserted.

M^r Ghorum, inclined to a compromise as to the rule of proportion. He thought there was some weight in the objections of the small States. If V^a should have 16. votes & Del^{re} with several other States together 16, those from Virg^a would be more likely to unite than the others, and would therefore have an undue influence. This remark was applicable not only to States, but to Counties or other districts of the same State.

Accordingly the Const.i.tution of Ma.s.s^{ts} had provided that the representatives of the larger districts should not be in an exact ratio to their numbers, and experience he thought had shewn the provision to be expedient.

M^r Read. The States have heretofore been in a sort of partnership. They ought to adjust their old affairs before they open a new account. He brought into view the appropriation of the co[~m]on interest in the Western lands, to the use of particular States. Let justice be done on this head; let the fund be applied fairly & equally to the discharge of the general debt, and the smaller States who had been injured; would listen then perhaps to those ideas of just representation which had been held out.

M^r Ghorum, did not see how the Convention could interpose in the case.

Errors he allowed had been committed on the subject. But Cong^s were now using their endeavours to rectify them. The best remedy would be such a Government as would have vigor enough to do justice throughout. This was certainly the best chance that could be afforded to the smaller States.

M^r Wilson, the question is shall the members of the 2^d branch be chosen by the Legislatures of the States? When he considered the amazing extent of Country--the immense population which is to fill it, the influence which the Gov^t we are to form will have, not only on the present generation of our people & their multiplied posterity, but on the whole Globe, he was lost in the magnitude of the object. The project of Henry the 4^{th} & his Statesmen was but the picture in miniature of the great portrait to be exhibited. He was opposed to an election by the State Legislatures. In explaining his reasons it was necessary to observe the twofold relation in which the people would stand, 1. as Citizens of the Gen^l Gov^t 2. as Citizens of their particular State.

The Gen^l Gov^t was meant for them in the first capacity: the State Gov^{ts} in the second. Both Gov^{ts} were derived from the people--both meant for the people--both therefore ought to be regulated on the same principles. The same train of ideas which belonged to the relation of the Citizens to their State Gov^{ts} were applicable to their relation to the Gen^l Gov^t and in forming the latter, we ought to proceed, by abstracting as much as possible from the idea of the State Gov^{ts}.

With respect to the province & object of the Gen^l Gov^t they should be considered as having no existence. The election of the 2^d branch by the Legislatures, will introduce & cherish local interests & local prejudices. The Gen^l Gov^t is not an a.s.semblage of States, but of individuals for certain political purposes--it is not meant for the States, but for the individuals composing them; the _individuals_ therefore not the _States_, ought to be represented in it: A proportion in this representation can be preserved in the 2^d as well as in the 1^{st} branch; and the election can be made by electors chosen by the people for that purpose. He moved an amendment to that effect which was not seconded.

M^r Elseworth saw no reason for departing from the mode contained in the Report. Whoever chooses the member, he will be a Citizen of the State he is to represent & will feel the same spirit & act the same part whether he be appointed by the people or the Legislature. Every State has its particular views & prejudices, which will find their way into the general Councils, through whatever channel they may flow. Wisdom was one of the characteristics which it was in contemplation to give the second branch. Would not more of it issue from the Legislatures; than from an immediate election by the people. He urged the necessity of maintaining the existence, & agency of the States. Without their co-operation it would be impossible to support a Republican Gov^t over so great an extent of Country. An army could scarcely render it practicable. The largest States are the worst Governed. Virg^a is obliged to acknowledge her incapacity to extend her Gov^t to Kentuckey. Ma.s.s^{ts} cannot keep the peace one hundred miles from her capitol and is now forming an army for its support. How long Pen^a may be free from a like situation cannot be foreseen. If the principles & materials of our Gov^t are not adequate to the extent of these single States; how can it be imagined that they can support a single Gov^t throughout the U. States. The only chance of supporting a Gen^l Gov^t lies in grafting it on that of the individual States.

Doc^r Johnson urged the necessity of preserving the State Gov^{ts} which would be at the mercy of the Gen^l Gov^t on M^r Wilson's plan.

M^r Madison thought it w^d obviate difficulty if the present resol: were postponed, & the 8{th} taken up, which is to fix the right of suffrage in the 2^d branch.

Doc^r Williamson professed himself a friend to such a system as would secure the existence of the State Gov^{ts}. The happiness of the people depended on it. He was at a loss to give his vote as to the Senate untill he knew the number of its members. In order to ascertain this, he moved to insert these words after "2^d branch of the Nat^l Legislature"--"who shall bear such proportion to the n^o of the 1^{st} branch as 1 to ----." He was not seconded.

M^r Mason. It has been agreed on all hands that an efficient Gov^t is necessary that to render it such it ought to have the faculty of self defence, that to render its different branches effectual each of them ought to have the same power of self defence. He did not wonder that such an agreement should have prevailed in these points. He only wondered that there should be any disagreement about the necessity of allowing the State Gov^{ts} the same self-defence. If they are to be preserved as he conceived to be essential, they certainly ought to have this power. And the only mode left of giving it to them, was by allowing them to appoint the 2^d branch of the Nat^l Legislature.

M^r Butler observing that we were put to difficulties at every step by the uncertainty whether an equality or a ratio of representation w^d prevail finally in the 2^d branch, moved to postpone the 4^{th} Resol: & to proceed to the Resol: on that point. M^r Madison seconded him.

On the question

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. P^a no.

Del. no. M{d.} no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On a question to postpone the 4 and take up the 7 Resol: ays, Mary^d V^a N. C. S. C. Geo;--Noes, Ma.s.s. C^t N. Y. N. J. P^a Del:

On the question to agree "that the members of the 2^d branch be chosen by the indiv^l Legislatures" Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay.

P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.[108]

[108] Madison's Note:

It must be kept in view that the largest States particularly Pennsylvania & Virginia always considered the choice of the 2^d Branch by the State Legislatures as opposed to a proportional representation to which they were attached as a fundamental principle of just Government. The smaller States who had opposite views, were reinforced by the members from the large States most anxious to secure the importance of the State Governments.

On a question on the clause requiring the age of 30 years at least,--it was agreed to unanimously:

On a question to strike out the words, "sufficient to ensure their independency" after the word "term" it was agreed to.

That the 2^d branch hold their offices for a term of seven years, considered.

M^r Ghorum suggests a term of "4 years," 1/4 to be elected every year.

M^r Randolph, supported the idea of rotation, as favorable to the wisdom & stability of the Corps, which might possibly be always sitting, and aiding the Executive.

And moves after "7 years," to add, "to go out in fixt proportion" which was agreed to.

M^r Williamson suggests "6 years," as more convenient for Rotation than 7 years.

M^r Sherman seconds him.

M^r Reed proposed that they s^d hold their offices "during good behaviour." Mr. R. Morris seconds him.

Gen^l Pinkney, proposed "4 years." A longer term w^d fix them at the seat of Gov^t. They w^d acquire an interest there, perhaps transfer their property & lose sight of the States they represent. Under these circ.u.mstances the distant States w^d labour under great disadvantages.[109]

[109] According to Yates, Madison followed Pinckney: "Mr. Madison. We are proceeding in the same manner that was done when the Confederation was first formed. Its original draft was excellent, but in its progress and completion it became so insufficient as to give rise to the present Convention. By the vote already taken, will not the temper of the state legislatures transfuse itself into the Senate?

Do we create a free government?"--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_, etc., 168.

M^r Sherman moved to strike out "7 years" in order to take questions on the several propositions.

On the question to strike out "seven"

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no.

M^d div^d. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the question to insert "6 years", which failed 5 St^s being ay. 5 no, & 1 divided

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On a motion to adjourn, the votes were 5 for 5 ag^{st} it & 1 divided,--Con. N. J. P^a Del. V^a ay. Ma.s.s^{ts} N. Y. N. C. S. C. Geo: no. Mary^d divided.

On the question for "5 years" it was lost.

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Adj^d.

TUESDAY, JUNE 26. IN CONVENTION

The duration of the 2^d branch under consideration.

M^r Ghorum moved to fill the blank with "six years," one third of the members to go out every second year.

M^r Wilson 2^{ded} the motion.