The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 61

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 61

On this motion

N. H. div^d. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo--no.

M^r Gerry moved to strike out the words "or by Conventions in three fourths thereof." On this motion

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Sherman moved according to his idea above expressed to annex to the end of the article a further proviso "that no State shall without its consent be affected in its internal police, or deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate."

M^r Madison. Begin with these special provisos, and every State will insist on them, for their boundaries, exports &c.

On the motion of M^r Sherman

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Sherman then moved to strike out art. V altogether.

M^r Brearley 2^{ded} the motion, on which

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del div^d. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to annex a further proviso--"that no State, without its consent shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate."

This motion being dictated by the circulating murmurs of the small States was agreed to without debate, no one opposing it, or on the question, saying no.

Col: Mason expressing his discontent at the power given to Congress by a bare majority to pa.s.s navigation acts, which he said would not only enhance the freight, a consequence he did not so much regard--but would enable a few rich merchants in Philad^a N. York & Boston, to monopolize the Staples of the Southern States & reduce their value perhaps 50 Per C^t moved a further proviso that no law in the nature of a navigation act be pa.s.sed before the year 1808, without the consent of 2/3 of each branch of the Legislature.

On this motion

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. abs^t. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r Randolph animadverting on the indefinite and dangerous power given by the Const.i.tution to Congress, expressing the pain he felt at differing from the body of the Convention, on the close of the great & awful subject of their labours, and anxiously wishing for some accommodating expedient which would relieve him from his embarra.s.sments, made a motion importing "that amendments to the plan might be offered by the State Conventions, which should be submitted to and finally decided on by another general Convention." Should this proposition be disregarded, it would he said be impossible for him to put his name to the instrument. Whether he should oppose it afterwards he would not then decide but he would not deprive himself of the freedom to do so in his own State, if that course should be prescribed by his final judgment.

Col: Mason 2^{ded} & followed M^r Randolph in animadversions on the dangerous power and structure of the Government, concluding that it would end either in monarchy, or a tyrannical aristocracy; which, he was in doubt, but one or other, he was sure. This Const.i.tution had been formed without the knowledge or idea of the people. A second Convention will know more of the sense of the people, and be able to provide a system more consonant to it. It was improper to say to the people, take this or nothing. As the Const.i.tution now stands, he could neither give it his support or vote in Virginia; and he could not sign here what he could not support there. With the expedient of another Convention as proposed, he could sign.

M^r Pinkney. These declarations from members so respectable at the close of this important scene, give a peculiar solemnity to the present moment. He descanted on the consequences of calling forth the deliberations & amendments of the different States on the subject of Government at large. Nothing but confusion & contrariety could spring from the experiment. The States will never agree in their plans, and the Deputies to a second Convention coming together under the discordant impressions of their Const.i.tuents, will never agree. Conventions are serious things, and ought not to be repeated. He was not without objections as well as others to the plan. He objected to the contemptible weakness & dependence of the Executive. He objected to the power of a majority only of Cong^s over Commerce. But apprehending the danger of a general confusion, and an ultimate decision by the sword, he should give the plan his support.

M^r Gerry stated the objections which determined him to withhold his name from the Const.i.tution. 1. the duration and re-eligibility of the Senate. 2. the power of the House of Representatives to conceal their journals. 3. the power of Congress over the places of election. 4. the unlimited power of Congress over their own compensation. 5.

Ma.s.sachusetts has not a due share of Representatives allotted to her. 6.

3/5 of the Blacks are to be represented as if they were freemen. 7.

Under the power over commerce, monopolies may be established. 8. The vice president being made head of the Senate. He could however he said get over all these, if the rights of the Citizens were not rendered insecure 1. by the general power of the Legislature to make what laws they may please to call necessary and proper. 2. raise armies and money without limit. 3. to establish a tribunal without juries, which will be a Star-chamber as to Civil cases. Under such a view of the Const.i.tution, the best that could be done he conceived was to provide for a second general Convention.

On the question on the proposition of M^r Randolph. All the States answered no.

On the question to agree to the Const.i.tution as amended. All the States ay.

The Const.i.tution was then ordered to be engrossed. and the House adjourned.

MONDAY SEP^R 17. 1787. IN CONVENTION

The engrossed Const.i.tution being read.

Doc^r Franklin rose with a speech in his hand, which he had reduced to writing for his own conveniency, and which M^r Wilson read in the words following.

M^r President

I confess that there are several parts of this const.i.tution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them: For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise. It is therefore that the older I grow, the more apt I am to doubt my own judgment, and to pay more respect to the judgment of others.

Most men indeed as well as most sects in Religion think themselves in possession of all truth, and that wherever others differ from them it is so far error. Steele a Protestant in a Dedication tells the Pope, that the only difference between our Churches in their opinions of the certainty of their doctrines is, the Church of Rome is infallible and the Church of England is never in the wrong. But though many private persons think almost as highly of their own infallibility as of that of their sect, few express it so naturally as a certain french lady, who in a dispute with her sister, said "I don't know how it happens, Sister but I meet with n.o.body but myself, that is always in the right--_Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison_."

In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Const.i.tution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other. I doubt too whether any other Convention we can obtain may be able to make a better Const.i.tution. For when you a.s.semble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably a.s.semble with those men, all their prejudices, their pa.s.sions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views. From such an a.s.sembly can a perfect production be expected? It therefore astonishes me, Sir, to find this system approaching so near to perfection as it does; and I think it will astonish our enemies, who are waiting with confidence to hear that our councils are confounded like those of the Builders of Babel; and that our States are on the point of separation, only to meet hereafter for the purpose of cutting one another's throats. Thus I consent, Sir, to this Const.i.tution because I expect no better, and because I am not sure, that it is not the best. The opinions I have had of its errors, I sacrifice to the public good. I have never whispered a syllable of them abroad. Within these walls they were born, and here they shall die. If every one of us in returning to our Const.i.tuents were to report the objections he has had to it, and endeavor to gain partizans in support of them, we might prevent its being generally received, and thereby lose all the salutary effects & great advantages resulting naturally in our favor among foreign nations as well as among ourselves, from our real or apparent unanimity. Much of the strength & efficiency of any Government in procuring and securing happiness to the people, depends, on opinion, on the general opinion of the goodness of the Government, as well as of the wisdom and integrity of its Governors. I hope therefore that for our own sakes as a part of the people, and for the sake of posterity, we shall act heartily and unanimously in recommending this Const.i.tution (if approved by Congress & confirmed by the Conventions) wherever our influence may extend, and turn our future thoughts & endeavors to the means of having it well administered.

On the whole, Sir, I cannot help expressing a wish that every member of the Convention who may still have objections to it, would with me, on this occasion doubt a little of his own infallibility, and to make manifest our unanimity, put his name to this instrument.--He then moved that the Const.i.tution be signed by the members and offered the following as a convenient form viz: "Done in Convention by the unanimous consent of _the States_ present the 17^{th} of Sep^r &c.--In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names."

This ambiguous form had been drawn up by M^r G. M. in order to gain the dissenting members, and put into the hands of Doc^r Franklin that it might have the better chance of success.

M^r Gorham said if it was not too late he could wish, for the purpose of lessening objections to the Const.i.tution, that the clause declaring "the number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every forty thousand"

which had produced so much discussion, might be yet reconsidered, in order to strike out 40,000 & insert "thirty thousand." This would not he remarked establish that as an absolute rule, but only give Congress a greater lat.i.tude which could not be thought unreasonable.

M^r King & M^r Carrol seconded & supported the ideas of M^r Gorham.

When the President rose, for the purpose of putting the question, he said that although his situation had hitherto restrained him from offering his sentiments on questions depending in the House, and it might be thought, ought now to impose silence on him, yet he could not forbear expressing his wish that the alteration proposed might take place. It was much to be desired that the objections to the plan recommended might be made as few as possible. The smallness of the proportion of Representatives had been considered by many members of the Convention an insufficient security for the rights & interests of the people. He acknowledged that it had always appeared to himself among the exceptionable parts of the plan, and late as the present moment was for admitting amendments, he thought this of so much consequence that it would give much satisfaction to see it adopted.[102]

[102] This was the only occasion on which the President entered at all into the discussions of the Convention.--Madison's Note.

No opposition was made to the proposition of M^r Gorham and it was agreed to unanimously.

On the question to agree to the Const.i.tution enrolled in order to be signed. It was agreed to all the States answering ay.

M^r Randolph then rose and with an allusion to the observations of Doc^r Franklin apologized for his refusing to sign the Const.i.tution notwithstanding the vast majority & venerable names that would give sanction to its wisdom and its worth. He said however that he did not mean by this refusal to decide that he should oppose the Const.i.tution without doors. He meant only to keep himself free to be governed by his duty as it should be prescribed by his future judgment. He refused to sign, because he thought the object of the convention would be frustrated by the alternative which it presented to the people. Nine States will fail to ratify the plan and confusion must ensue. With such a view of the subject he ought not, he could not, by pledging himself to support the plan, restrain himself from taking such steps as might appear to him most consistent with the public good.

M^r Gov^r Morris said that he too had objections, but considering the present plan as the best that was to be attained, he should take it with all its faults. The majority had determined in its favor, and by that determination he should abide. The moment this plan goes forth all other considerations will be laid aside, and the great question will be, shall there be a national Government or not? and this must take place or a general anarchy will be the alternative. He remarked that the signing in the form proposed related only to the fact that the _States_ present were unanimous.

M^r Williamson suggested that the signing should be confined to the letter accompanying the Const.i.tution to Congress, which might perhaps do nearly as well, and would be found satisfactory to some members[103] who disliked the Const.i.tution. For himself he did not think a better plan was to be expected and had no scruples against putting his name to it.

[103] He alluded to M^r Blount for one.--Madison's Note.

M^r Hamilton expressed his anxiety that every member should sign. A few characters of consequence, by opposing or even refusing to sign the Const.i.tution, might do infinite mischief by kindling the latent sparks which lurk under an enthusiasm in favor of the Convention which may soon subside. No man's ideas were more remote from the plan than his own were known to be; but is it possible to deliberate between anarchy and Convulsion on one side, and the chance of good to be expected from the plan on the other.

M^r Blount[104] said he had declared that he would not sign, so as to pledge himself in support of the plan, but he was relieved by the form proposed and would without committing himself attest the fact that the plan was the unanimous act of the States in Convention.